tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post7362151332607090957..comments2024-03-28T06:52:15.545+01:00Comments on Joost's Dev Blog: 5 years below minimum wage: the financial history of RonimoJoost van Dongenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00569566310604620045noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-75627739479125702882020-11-21T21:00:40.121+01:002020-11-21T21:00:40.121+01:00Absolutely! That also makes surviving as a studio ...Absolutely! That also makes surviving as a studio harder: the longer we exist, the more used we are to having a decent income. Now that we have kids and mortgages and employees our costs as a studio are much higher and we can't easily reduce the monthly costs anymore.<br /><br />On the other hand, if you're more experienced and less green you can make better choices and better products and reach a decent income quicker. I'm pretty sure that if I started again now, it would not take me 5 years to go beyond minimum wage. Or at least, the chances would be much better.Joost van Dongenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00569566310604620045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-58912840345327211832020-11-21T08:17:27.660+01:002020-11-21T08:17:27.660+01:00And extremely scary, yet inspiring article. Few of...And extremely scary, yet inspiring article. Few of us are in a situation where you can show that indurance. The older you get the more responsobilities like growing family etc you have. Scott Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14694835083831735327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-74489489703512674242020-11-16T18:07:47.298+01:002020-11-16T18:07:47.298+01:00Thanks for sharing! It's been ages since we...Thanks for sharing! It's been ages since we've talked, interesting to hear how it went for you guys.<br /><br />And thanks again for sharing your knowledge back then: the great help we got from Dutch companies like you guys was invaluable for us starting out!Joost van Dongenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00569566310604620045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-48147801543679979522020-11-16T18:05:24.606+01:002020-11-16T18:05:24.606+01:00Good luck and above all: have fun! :)Good luck and above all: have fun! :)Joost van Dongenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00569566310604620045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-47650927730123015712020-11-16T12:00:02.039+01:002020-11-16T12:00:02.039+01:00Hey Joost - I recall you reaching out to me before...Hey Joost - I recall you reaching out to me before you founded your VOF and asking about our experience. With only three founders at Triangle Studios with similar competences, we always depended on having (paid) employees. We also had starting families pretty early on, so we also needed to pay ourselves a living wage.<br /><br />This forced us to do a lot of "work for hire" jobs and this in turn kept us from being able to focus on creating our own titles. In the end I believe this held us back way too long, and forced us into a lot of situations that we thought were good at first, but ended up regretting (live and learn, right?).<br /><br />I also wanted to share that from the outside looking in, I always thought Ronimo was much more of a financial success than what you're sharing in this blog. I know first hand how hard it is to survive these times, and I'm happy that you guys managed that.Remco de Rooijhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14603434702746417337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-30554450396105014092020-11-16T11:06:13.824+01:002020-11-16T11:06:13.824+01:00Ok I will do that then - thank you very much for y...Ok I will do that then - thank you very much for your advice!potterman28wxcvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07140661035646916078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-18126038666028535682020-11-16T10:51:13.576+01:002020-11-16T10:51:13.576+01:00If you prefer working at a smaller studio, then yo...If you prefer working at a smaller studio, then you should definitely start learning Unity. The majority of smaller studios use Unity these days.Joost van Dongenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00569566310604620045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-63806232340707898592020-11-15T23:09:07.561+01:002020-11-15T23:09:07.561+01:00I don't mind something being hardcore to learn...I don't mind something being hardcore to learn - I guess it all depends on which studio i'm targetting as you say.<br /><br />Speaking of which, I haven't taken a look yet - I live in France so that could be a french studio (though I wouldn't mind going to other european countries). I'd have to look at each of them, see what they do, and if I like what they do. I think I would tend to prefer smaller studios - and I wouldn't be a fan on working on FPS shooters - other than that, I don't have any clear direction yet.potterman28wxcvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07140661035646916078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-41972605078765940872020-11-15T21:45:06.663+01:002020-11-15T21:45:06.663+01:00True, any job application will have a much better ...True, any job application will have a much better chance of succeeding if you have experience not just with coding but also with game coding.<br /><br />The type of coding greatly differs though. I recommend trying either Unity or Unreal and making something with that. Unreal is a bit more hardcore (might fit your C background better than Unity's C#), but Unity is used a bit more I think, so it might be easier to find a Unity job somewhere. Might depend on your area though, what's near.<br /><br />In any case, I think that month is best spent getting good at skills that are relevant for a game programmer. I imagine the game you make doesn't need to be fun, but instead just needs to show you can do the technical part of games well.<br /><br />Do you have specific studios in your area in mind where you would want to work?Joost van Dongenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00569566310604620045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-30167545960751731972020-11-15T20:43:58.461+01:002020-11-15T20:43:58.461+01:00Ok, it reassures me a bit that you were all specia...Ok, it reassures me a bit that you were all specialized into something. I've seen a number of indie developers being both artists and programmers - some of those making these "how I made my indie game" kind of videos on Youtube.<br /><br />Thanks for your tips - indeed, as someone not skilled at all at art, I did try a couple times to fire a Blender tutorial, but it's not my thing.<br /><br />And you got me right: I'm great at programming and debugging, but I'm not attracted to making 3D models, and I dislike having to deal with business. It wasn't in my plans to make my own company, definitely :)<br /><br />The thing though is that to get a coding job at a game company, it's best if I have something to show off. Hence my idea of spending a month just to make something - even if it ends up having not-that-good art. I will have a PhD in CS, but it's a bit of a niche thing (proven-correct optimizations for C compilers) - I don't have any experience coding wise in the 3D domain.<br /><br />Coming up at a job interview like "I've never done this before, but I want to try!" might be a bit risky.potterman28wxcvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07140661035646916078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-72581289625070118452020-11-15T20:11:17.894+01:002020-11-15T20:11:17.894+01:00At Ronimo we're all specialized in something: ...At Ronimo we're all specialized in something: art, design or code. No one does them all at the company, although a bunch of us have some degree of skill in other fields as well. When we started, the 7 founders consisted of 2 designers, 4 artists and 1 programmer (me).<br /><br />If you're not skilled at art already, then I would recommend either making that game as hobby (so art doesn't matter or you can use existing free stuff), or looking for an artist to work with. Trying to develop pro art skills at this point is going to take way too long (as in, a decade).<br /><br />However, from what you're describing I get the impression that you would really like to be a game programmer, but that you're not too much into the creative and business sides of things. So why not try to get a coding job at an existing game company? That's infinitely more easy than starting your own company.Joost van Dongenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00569566310604620045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-24793552379300186092020-11-15T19:56:28.141+01:002020-11-15T19:56:28.141+01:00I see - I guess the most important is to love what...I see - I guess the most important is to love what you're doing. As a programmer I've experienced a job that I really didn't enjoy at all - it was giving me much more money than I'm making now, but each day felt a bit.. blank? I really don't want to experience that anymore.<br /><br />My PhD is coming to an end, so the question of "what do I do next" starts to become more and more important. The idea of making games sound like a lot of fun, but it seems to be a more and more competitive domain nowadays.<br /><br />I was thinking perhaps after my PhD to spend a month dedicated to making a tiny video game. Try to do something very "prototype" and cheap, see where that leads. Though the art part is scaring me a little bit, I'm a terrible drawer, I have no knowledge of Blender neither. I'm afraid such a project would end up using whatever free asset I happen to find, which could be a start I guess?<br /><br />I was wondering, among your 6 friends, did all of you know how to both program and produce assets, as in, you were all-rounders? Or did you have specializations?potterman28wxcvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07140661035646916078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-14799609657653902582020-11-15T19:29:29.114+01:002020-11-15T19:29:29.114+01:00My motto during the first years was: "Even if...My motto during the first years was: "Even if it fails, I'll still have had an awesome time. I can always look for a job later."<br /><br />So, yes, I absolutely would have done it again, had I known it would take so long! I've enjoyed the whole period tremendously. Making games is fun and doing so with friends at your own company is even more fun. I never got in a position where I couldn't afford food or home and financially everything else is bonus to me. Sure, I couldn't afford buying a car or renting my own apartment or going on expensive vacations, but I don't care much about those things.Joost van Dongenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00569566310604620045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3064325214589649535.post-52476887129031667102020-11-15T18:55:41.388+01:002020-11-15T18:55:41.388+01:00Thanks for this very interesting article! It's...Thanks for this very interesting article! It's always great to hear success stories from an insider point of view, especially when it's nuanced: you were successful eventually, but what a journey to get there.<br /><br />I might have a question: if you had known before-hand everything you would have to go through (years of having a barely sustainable salary), would you have done it anyway? Or would you have rather seeked for more stable opportunities? Assuming the year is still 2007potterman28wxcvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07140661035646916078noreply@blogger.com